J Bame said:
So, using Sunfury to abuse Sharpened is fine but using a Hellwing Bow because it has great DPS and range is not... I don't get it.
Sunfury in this case is used to support and strengthen your minions mainly, it's synergy. Hellwing bow is used to just do more damage than Pure or Hybrid summoner by really just playing Ranger instead of something resembling Summoner at that point.
We both know that Ranger >>>> Summoner in the WoF fight. Say that not using a "Best" option for a particular fight is just setting yourself back, but I stand that this thread is about Summoner or at least have the minion/whips as a very significant focus in a loadout. Your argument is literally "Summoner isn't that bad for WoF, just temporarily switch your class to Ranger and you'll be fine."
J Bame said:
In any case my point still stands,
My point about if Frogs are better for a defensive Bee Armor + Sharpened playstyle was literally never addressed let alone refuted. I will not be changing Frog's placement as long as this is not refuted.
J Bame said:
okay this is driving me insane how the
is this fish so rare to you
is this fish so rare to youI don't know man. I remember in a mage playthrough the line snapped at Crystal Serpent two times in a row. Guess I'm just unlucky?
J Bame said:
In the Bee and Molten Frog tests you can see at the beginning of the fight that I fly up to target the top eye.
Interesting. In that case I will simply do some DPS tests with my defensive playstyle (why didn't I do this sooner?).
(30+ minutes later)
So here's what I found. I played with Bee armor + Sharpened only holding a Melee weapon and not using it at all, played defensively only relying on minions. Ex. Stuff buff active, Menacing on accessories. No whips used except for clearing Hungries at the start without targeting WoF directly.
While trying to exclude Hungries from DPS results as much as possible, here's what the DPS Meter told me, approximately:
Full Imp: 190-250 (Can dip as low as under 180 if all attacks at the same time with i-frames in mind) Full Frog: 200-290 (Can dip under 200 if most/all frogs are stacked on top of each other) Frog + 2-3 Flinx: 200-300 (Slightly more consistent?) 3 Imp + 3 Frog: 300+ (Seemingly consistent)
Conclusion: Full Imp is lackluster as it gets slightly lower DPS, but another thing is that its aggro range is lower and AI shenanigans happened much more often while testing imps than Frogs or Flinx. In general WoF tests with Full Imp felt longer. However, in the end, we are both half-right as mixing Imp & Frog leads to the best results that also seem consistent. I don't know how minion i-frames fully work, but despite Mail's comment about Imp Staff, it seem to fare much better when mixed with another minion as the Imps themselves don't run into i-frames as much, and the frogs aren't as likely to be stacked on top of each other either. Imps can attack the top eye consistently, while the frogs can attack the mouth & bottom eye consistently.
With this in mind, I will be rising Imp Staff from A- to A.
Mail said:
They can be used in large numbers with other minions, but melee weapons or spammy or long lasting piercing magic weapons will temporarily stop them from dealing damage.
Is this really true for Blade Staff? From my experience, Blade Staff can deal damage just fine even while swinging Fetid Baghnakhs. I can see Blade Staff's damage numbers (16~) while attacking Retinazer with Fetid Baghnakhs when looking close.
Mail said:
Hornet staff is rated a bit low, but it does have an advantage of being the only pre-hardmode minion not using immunity frames, so you can use it alongside any piercing weapons in the game without losing dps.
I took this into account, but its slow projectile speed just kills it honestly. If the stingers were as fast as Imp's fireballs, it would actually be really good against Skeletron, the best minion for it in theory.
Mail said:
You should definitely check to see if Optic Staff and Deadly Sphere Staff perform well as a single summon slot alongside other minions.
Deadly Sphere Staff will be ranked slightly higher as from what I saw it seem to barely contribute additional DPS in a Sanguine Staff setup.
Optic Staff is pretty much hopeless. For Blade Staff, It's too dumb to be used Underground alongside it, and Blade Staff setups are best used with Full Warding, hurting Optic's damage output significantly. With whips, one cannot even be confident that one pair one twins will pull higher damage than one dagger attacking 5-6 times a second consistently for 30-40 damage a hit. With Sanguine Staff, Optic has lower base damage, so that's pretty much an immediate no considering Firecracker.
